CIA Station Chiefs and not-so-secret Secrets
I’m joined by two high-level former CIA intelligence officers in this week’s podcast. John Sipher and Jerry O’Shea were station chiefs in Moscow, Baghdad and other key posts. They now host a podcast called Mission Implausible in which they banter - as you’ll hear on my show these former spooks can certainly banter - about conspiracy theories.
Each week I send my guests a questionnaire before we chat. It’s a Proust-like set of questions that focus on America. A fun parlor game? Yes, but also really interesting to see what folks have to say about where they would go if they could time travel in American history, or what movie best sums up the U.S.A. There are also some fantastic answers about who would be invited to a dream dinner party (guests can be dead or alive.)
I’ve included John and Jerry’s answers below. All my previous guest’s answers are on the newly updated website www.searchingforamericapod.com Fun reading!
Alternatively, you can catch up with the bonus episodes from previous shows where I devote an entire conversation to these questions. You’d be surprised by some answers and chuckling with amusement at others. If you’ve not listened to the previous bonus shows do go back and listen. I loved it that Sarah Smarsh wanted to time travel to the 1920’s to find a honky tonk where she could do the Texas Two-Step.
Ex-CIA Station Chiefs
John Sipher and Jerry O'Shea (Part 1)
Two of America's high-level intelligence officers join Searching for America for a wide-ranging conversation about what might happen if Donald Trump becomes President again? Ex-CIA Station Chiefs John Sipher and Jerry O'Shea who have 60 years experience between them operating in hostile environments across the world but they agree that trying to understand America right now is "befuddling."
Robyn Curnow ask them who will win the election? "This isn't a secret that spies can steal."
Ex-CIA intel officers and a Nazi-KGB spy
Jerry O'Shea and John Sipher (Part 2)
Every week Robyn Curnow asks her guest the same questions in this bonus episode. Where would you go if you could time travel? Dream Thanksgiving dinner guest (dead or alive)? What does it mean to be an American? Why is the country polarized? Favorite movie?
Jerry O’Shea and John Sipher answer
John Sipher answers Robyn’s B-roll bonus questions
Three words to describe America?
Divided, uncertain, searching
If you could time travel, which era in American history would you like to visit?
1940s, 50s. I'm a history buff and interested in the making of the Cold War and our national security institutions.
Where did you grow up?
Small town in upstate NY
Dream dinner party guests? Which Americans would you invite to your Thanksgiving celebration (dead or alive?)
FDR, Whitaker Chambers, Henry Kissinger
Which books or movies explainAmerica?
Too many
When did your family arrive in the USA? Where are they from originally?
Northern Europe. 19th century
What's your motto?
Be nice
Why is America so divided?
There are two different kinds of personalities that manifest in different outlooks on the world. While our system is meant to depend on compromise, it is also vulnerable to populists and personalities. I think Trumpism has surfaced parts of American political culture that have always been there, but have usually been on the fringe.
Have you lost friends or family because of politics?
Yes
What issues are driving you to vote? Or not?
I always vote
An American president you admire?
Lincoln, FDR
An American president you don't admire?
Trump
Sports team?
NY Giants, Yankees, Knicks
What were your parents' careers? How did they influence your career?
Father was a history professor. Mother a school librarian. Always interested in history, events, politics.
What can be done to bring Americans together?
I wish I knew. Certainly more civics education. Less Gerrymandering. Politics have been a rush to the extremes. We need to realize that governing requires compromise, and a complex world requires experts.
Do you listen to, read or watch the news? Where do you get your information?
I read. Times, Post, Economist, books. Only watch news like PBS
Who do you think will win in November?
Harris
Jerry O’Shea answers Robyn’s B-roll bonus questions
Three words to describe America?
protean, polarized, powerful (but overly focused on its perceived weaknesses)
If you could time travel, which era in American history would you like to visit?
The future: 2057 (when I'd be 100, if I ever make it). Want to know how our (US society's, CIA's and my personal) efforts and sacrifices result in making the world, hopefully, better for my/our children and grandchildren (i.e., protecting the democratic ideals in the constitution, dealing with authoritarian regime rivals, new revolutionary technologies and, perhaps most of all, climate change). What we all got right and where we failed.
Where did you grow up?
Small town, one of ten kids, with one street light in upstate, New York (near Rochester). Left home at 18 and lived/studied/traveled on own for years in Europe (university in Austria and Germany), Asia, Africa, Middle East and Latin America before returning back to US. Student and hippie years. Note: for Robyn: I travelled through Africa in my early years (hitch-hiked through Sudan; spent much time in Kenya) and then, professionally, lived in Zimbabwe for years (also spent much time in South Africa )- Zim was my favorite foreign tour. I love Africa.)
Dream dinner party guests? Which Americans would you invite to your Thanksgiving celebration (dead or alive?)
Earnest Hemingway, Susan B. Anthony, Teddy Roosevelt, Martha Dodd (America's most successful female spy - but for the other side), Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill (both had US citizenship), Obama (who now ives just up the road from me in Hawaii)
Is there a piece of American art or music that sums up your America?
The art form in which America has always led the world is: film. Casablanca with Bogart, Bergman, Claude Reins and Peter Lorre. Bogart embodies the tough, tortured misunderstood loner who, at heart, is really a romantic altruistic ideologue who wants to do the right thing. It captures the narrative of how America wants to sees itself in relation to the world.
Which books or movies explain America?
Book. "Team of Rivals: the political genius of Abraham Lincoln": Doris Kearns Goodwin. Non-Fiction. Messy democracy in action.
When did your family arrive in the USA? Where are they from originally?
Grandparents; all in 1920's and early 1930's: two from Ireland (one entered US illegally - jumped ship - in early 20's); one from Germany and one from French Canada (also entered illegally in early 30's)
When was the last time you cried?
Death of father; a few years ago.
What's your motto?
"Say not the struggle naught availeth..."
Why is America so divided?
"Traditional America" fears demographic, racial and tech changes that are inexorably altering its world and the narrative through which it understands the world and its place within it - for good and for ill. Many in America - immigrants, the educated and secular, the young, racially/culturally diverse elements - accept and embrace change; many do jot see a future for themselves as a majority shareholder in this new world. Divisions are real but are being exacerbated and manipulated by media, politicians, international adversaries, etc.
Have you lost friends or family because of politics?
Yes. Have received death threats, too.
What issues are driving you to vote? Or not?
Preserving democracy.
An American president you admire?
Lincoln, FDR
An American president you don't admire?
Trump
What were your parents' careers? How did they influence your career?
Father: Salesman; mother: housewife
What can be done to bring Americans together?
Create unifying narratives.
Favorite American meal or restaurant?
An American Thanksgiving, with all the trimmings - and with family
Biggest misunderstanding the rest of the world has about Americans?
That Americans are culturally shallow.
Do you listen to, read or watch the news? Where do you get your information?
Yes. News outlets that do fact-checking in US and foreign (i.e., BBC, der Spiegel, Deutsche Welle)
Best advice from a parent or grandparent?
Don't let others define you
What does it mean to be an American in 2024?
Trick question: there are two basic sets of answers and this is why the US is now polarized
Who do you think will win in November?
Harris - but would have said Trump is you'd asked me a month ago